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Michael: How did you get into pizza?

Kamron: I was living in Salt Lake and I had been there buying some real estate and was getting a little tired of that. The market looked like it was peaking out and I was starting to liquidate the real estate. The Rolling Stones were coming to town and I made a phone call to the newspaper to get tickets to the Rolling Stones. The guy I talked to that had the tickets for sale was a business broker… and I ended up buying a pizza shop.

Michael: Did you run it for a number of years?

Kamron: My marketing instincts took over, and we turned it into the number one selling gourmet pizza in the state of Utah within three years.

Michael: That’s great.

Kamron: It still is. The sales are just screaming through the roof.

Michael: What was it called?

Kamron: Wasatch Pizza.

Michael: Did you have a marketing background?

Kamron: Yes, that’s what I do.

Michael: Did you study Jay Abraham’s stuff?

Kamron: Yes, I have.

Michael: Okay, great so you used his techniques to do that?

Kamron: A lot of them, yes.

Michael: That’s great.

Kamron: Instead of starting off with the door hangers and the flyers and stuff, we just started out with a lot of personal letters to the neighborhoods surrounding each store.

Michael: Direct mail?

Kamron: Yes, through each store, rapidly.

Michael: How did you get them in for the first time?

Kamron: We made them an offer. In fact some of the offers just make me laugh when I look back at them now. The offer would be a free cheese bread, a free salad…. Now we go really aggressive, we offer, with the company I’m working here with in Las Vegas, we put out a free order of cheese sticks, a free two liter, and a free salad when they buy any large pizza. That’s to get them in the door.

Michael: That’s a tremendous way to build a restaurant chain. There’s one restaurant out here called Oscars.

Kamron: Yeah, Oscars is great.

Michael: Do you know how they built it? They built it with the free bread. The breadsticks.

Kamron: The garlic bread? What is it that they call those?

Michael: Breadsticks.

Kamron: Right.

Michael: That one technique, think about Mrs. Fields’ cookies…

Kamron: She’s in Park City Utah.

Michael: Free cookies! That one concept can literally build a giant industry; just giving something away for free.

Kamron: Yes, and food is cheap.

Michael: So you built that pizza business and then you sold it off?

Kamron: Yes.

Michael: Tell me, you wrote the book from your experience from being in this pizza industry and how you built that pizza business?

Kamron: The book is 24 chapters. It’s almost 300 pages.

Michael: What’s it called?

Kamron: It’ Called the “Black Book: Your Complete Guide to Building Staggering Profits in Your Pizza Business.”

Michael: How long ago did you to write it?

Kamron: It’s been about six months since it was finished.

Michael: And how long did it take?

Kamron: About six months.

Michael: You just wrote everything you knew - everything you learned? What’s it about?

Kamron: Well, I saved everything that we used to market. Certain things worked great, certain things worked okay. Other things weren’t so fabulous.

Michael: Do you have samples of your letters in there?

Kamron: Yes, the letters are in there. The book talks about how things that alliterate are better than things that don’t. Like when you have a coupon, it’s better to say “Nifty Eleven Fifty.” it sticks in the brain.

Michael: Right.

Kamron: It’s better to say “pizza party” or something that alliterates.

Michael: Words that can be remembered.

Kamron: Exactly. Bugs Bunny’s original name was “Happy Rabbit”. Would you remember that today?

Michael: No.

Kamron: So you’ve got Bugs Bunny, Mickey Mouse, Minnie Mouse, Dudley Do-Right, Yosemite Sam

.

Michael: Yes, you can remember them.

Kamron: Yes, things that stick in your head.

Michael: Is the book Hardcover?

Kamron: It’s in a three-ring binder.

Michael: Okay, so it’s 8 1/2x11. So you have letters and promotions, what else is in there?

Kamron: Door hangers, postcards.

Michael: Everything. A pizza business could take it and start hustling.

Kamron: Exactly.

Michael: What do you want it to retail for?

Kamron: It’s selling at $327.

Michael: $327. Do you have audio tapes that come with it?

Kamron: Not yet. That’s why I need to get the recording going.

Michael: So you want to produce some audio to increase the value?

Kamron: Yes, exactly. The number one thing that gets you the most bang for your buck, right off the bat, is the up-selling techniques in there. The up-selling has been my forte - the selling sentences. We’ve got seventeen things in there. There are about four of them that will literally pay for the book in the first two to three weeks.

Michael: Give me an example of two of the up-selling techniques.

Kamron: Okay. When somebody calls and they order a pizza they’ll say “Pepperoni, green peppers and onions”. In that very second, when they’re done placing the order for the pizza, you say “Extra cheese on that?” The technique is more like “Extra cheese ON THAT?” You raise the pitch of your voice towards the end. You don’t say, “Would you like extra cheese on that?” because what you are doing is you’re forcing the person now out of right-brain, emotional buying mode, into left brain analytical, analyzing a question mode. What causes the left brain to take over are the words, “Would you like.”

Michael: Right.

Kamron: Those three words. Now they think “Okay, I’ve got a question I’ve got to think about.” So you don’t do that. Instead you say, “Extra cheese on that?” “That’s a large?” “Sure” “What else can I get for you?”

Michael: Okay. Talk about the results if someone implements that technique within their store consistently. What have you seen in the increase in sales?

Kamron: The store here in Las Vegas, Redrock Pizza” -a girl named Kim Streeter disclosed that they’re generating about $37,000 dollars a year in extra sales from up-selling in her two stores.

Michael: That’s incredible. it’s up to the store to implement it, though?

Kamron: Yes.

Michael: It’s in the training. What’s another technique?

Kamron: Talking about up-selling?

Michael: Anything. Up-selling alone is pretty damn powerful.

Kamron: Here’s another. When you order a pizza there is probably what they call a “box topper” attached to the top of it. They are offers for their next order.

Michael: Right.

Kamron: A lot of people put their cut-throat offers on there -the $7.99-$8.99 pizzas. That’s always a mistake. What you need to do is, put an offer that’s just $1.00-$1.50 off your retail price, because, if the person doesn’t like the pizza, that cut-throat offer is not going to bring them back. And if they do like the pizza, you don’t have to do a cut-throat offer.

Michael: Right.

Kamron: So there’s no sense in constantly giving your product away at cheap prices.

Michael: Do you teach the pizza stores how to sell their pizza? I mean not just “fresh hot pizza delivered to your door”. Do you really get into the details of what goes into your pizza, and why it’s better?

Kamron: I mention a couple of different examples for people to play on, because what you’ll see on a lot of pizza coupons is they’ll say “Dough made fresh daily”. I yawn when I hear that.

Michael: Right.

Kamron: But when a guy tells me, “Hey. We use a special recipe, and yeast that was originally smuggled out of Bulgaria in 1888, brought over here on the whatever ship…”

Michael: That’s right.

Kamron: “…My family has been guarding that yeast culture, the original mother cell, for 160 years, and I use my 1942 Hobart mixer. We pour in water that is exactly 77 degrees.” You’ve got to tell the story.

Michael: That’s right.

Kamron: Not the dough is good, not “made fresh daily”. That just doesn’t mean anything.

Michael: We’re talking “Schlitz Malt Liquor” aren’t we?

Kamron: Pretty much.

Michael: That’s great. So if I visited that restaurant, I’d see that on the menu, or on the table, or what?

Kamron: It’s take out/delivery.

Michael: It’s only take out/delivery?

Kamron: Yes.

Michael: Is there a website?

Kamron: Yes.

Michael: What’s the website?

Kamron: www.redrockpizza.com

Michael: And it’s the number one take-out pizza?

Kamron: Well, this is in Las Vegas. There are two stores here in Salt Lake City. Wasatch pizza is the one that I developed, and it’s a monster there.

Michael: Is that take-out only?

Kamron: Take-out and deliveries. Two of the stores have a little bit of dine-in.

Michael: Is it online too?

Kamron: Yes, it is.

Michael: Interesting.

Kamron: They are named after the Wasatch Mountain Range there.

Michael: So you can really build an ordinary pizza place into a monster with these marketing techniques?

Kamron: My store that in Salt Lake City, the downtown store, right across from Domino’s and Pizza Hut, is busier than Domino’s and Pizza Hut.

Michael: Really?

Kamron: We would be doing $1800-$2000 for lunch, while their delivery driver is sitting on the front porch having a smoke.

Michael: That’s hilarious. Tell me about drinks. Is there money in drinks?

Kamron: Some.

Michael: Do you sell drinks like Domino’s does with the liter bottles?

Kamron: Yes. There not a lot of money in those. What I typically use those for is promotion. We have them, and people buy them, but I like to just give something away like that. “Order the large and you get a free 2-liter.” Something along those lines.

Michael: Is Domino’s pizza any good?

Kamron: Quality wise? Anybody’s pizza is okay when it’s made right - If that’s what you like.

Michael: True.

Kamron: Papa John’s strategy is "bill then sells.” The “Better ingredients, better pizza” is probably the strongest USP out there.

Michael: Yes, that is a good USP.

Kamron: He grew that company on those four words.

Michael: Okay.

Kamron: Their pizza is a little catchy. It depends. When you have three thousand stores, it’s not going to be the same everywhere.

Michael: How is the pizza market today, compared to 20 years ago?

Kamron: Well, it’s getting pretty tight out there. With the current economy here in 2003, I’d say it’s holding its own right now. The statistic for you is last year the approximate number is 4300 pizzerias went out of business, and 4100 opened up. So the net loss is about 200 stores.

Michael: What’s the average life span of a pizza place?

Kamron: I don’t know.

Michael: So it’s probably no different than the 80% of business’ are gone within the first five years. So most of them are gone within five years, probably due to lack of management and lack of marketing.

Kamron: Yeah, the average pizza store lost $4,200 in revenue. While the average chain store, like Domino’s pizza and Papa Johns, increased sales by $4600 per unit. They’re increasing at, obviously, at the independents expense. That’s why I put out the book. To try to level the playing field a little bit. Give them what I see as probably more marketing muscle than even the big guys. The big guys have their budget.

Michael: Right.

Kamron: But Pizza Hut is not able to look you in the eye and tell you about their home made pizza and “Mama’s recipe” and all that.

Michael: No they’re not. To do really good business, and I guess it’s relative, but how many customers do you need buying pizza every day from you. Tell me about, for example, one of your stores in Vegas. How many pizzas go out in a day? An average day. And give me an idea of a “kick-ass” day.

Kamron: A “kick-ass” day here would probably be a couple hundred pizzas.

Michael: And you’ve made money that day?

Kamron: Yes. There are some times that you get a huge order that’s 140 pizzas all by itself. A good weekend would probably be about 200 pizzas.

Michael: Does more money come from the individual people, from kids, or whatever ordering pizza for dinner or lunch, or large, large orders for events? How important are events? Promoting events and getting in on that.

Kamron: We love events, because they’re a big bang of cash.

Michael: It is good money?

Kamron: Yes.

Michael: Do you go into that in your book?

Kamron: No. I’m obviously telling them the different places to advertise to get that kind of stuff. Everything to the little league places to the car lots. I mention all that, but I don’t go into any specific rule of marketing to go after, say the fair coming to town, and how to get into that.

Michael: Right. Do you have a guarantee with your course?

Kamron: Definitely

Michael: What is it?

Kamron: A full year.

Michael: A full year guarantee. If you’re not making…

Kamron: I say if you don’t make 20 times what you paid for it, then send it back to me.

Michael: Okay. That’s exciting. Now, when you originally called me, you told me you’ve got an older guy who is in the pizza business. Or is a consultant.

Kamron: Right.

Michael: Who is he and how did he get to be a consultant?

Kamron: His name is Dave Ostranger, and he owned a very successful pizzeria. He is pretty much retired out of that about 13 years ago, and he has turned into the number one consultant out there in the pizza business.

Michael: Are there a lot of them, or just a few?

Kamron: Consultants?

Michael: Yes.

Kamron: There’s a small handful. Dave is the big name.

Michael: Because he promotes. He hustles?

Kamron: Dave is like your uncle Dave. Friendly guy, very approachable. A Straight shooter, not this big corporate slick guy showing up in a suit and tie.

Michael: Does he make good money consulting?

Kamron: I think he does as well as he wants to.

Michael: Let me ask you this: Tell me, do you know the demographics of pizza owners? Are they a lot of foreigners, a lot of Americans?

Kamron: A guy who works for one of the companies that manufacture the car top signs, tells me that it’s almost 30% middle-eastern owned now.

Michael: Does that make it difficult? Are these guys open to marketing?

Kamron: I don’t think so.

Michael: So that’s going to cut 30% of your market out.

Kamron: Yes, and it’s kind of funny because they’re the 30% that could use it the most.

Michael: Sure.

Kamron: Because they don’t have that grasp of the English language.

Michael: That’s true. They’re not going to be open to this stuff, at least most of them. What about the other demographics?

Kamron: I’d say you’ve got a fair amount of Italians back east and the rest is pretty much a white-bread mom and pop.

Michael: How big is the market for individual mom and pop pizza stores?

Kamron: 30,000 stores.

Michael: That’s a lot of stores. That a lot of people to market to. Okay, so how did you hook up with this other consultant? How did he get to marketing your book?

Kamron: I just sent books out to anybody who matters in the business - the magazines, the consultants. He got it, and mailed me back and said, “Great book, how can I help?”

Michael: And what did you say?

Kamron: I said, “Whatever you can do”. He wants to use my material in his seminars and that’s fine. So has my book. I’m not necessarily looking to get into what Dave does. I put out the book. I want to sell the book.

Michael: You want to sell the book.

Kamron: I want to sell the information, exactly.

Michael: Well that makes sense.

Kamron: I have other companies that I’m working with on other projects and I don’t want to run off and start consulting.

Michael: No, you want to hustle an information product where you don’t have to be there. So has he sold any books for you?

Kamron: No. It’s something he’s just started. He’s going to his first show this weekend.

Michael: You know what I would do? It would be nice to have him as an endorsement. Get him to write you an endorsement on the book.

Kamron: I have that.

Michael: Okay.

Kamron: I have a very strong one.

Michael: Do you want to put some audio and increase the value of your product before you start hustling it?

Kamron: Well, I want to get the audio together because I see that as the old funnel technique. Maybe a thirty seven dollar tape that will guarantee them they’ll make their money back the first weekend. That could be an entrée to the book.

Michael: Right. All right, interesting. Is there anything else that I can help you with?

Kamron: What I said in the beginning is what I asked you about the phone call. I find that I get some of the pizza operators are either extremely tight with a dollar, not willing to invest in their future, I’m not sure what it is, but it’s like they’re so wigged out, even with a one year guarantee to buy our product. I have a fulfillment service, they can call a number, and they can ask questions, but I’m finding that I get a lot of these people calling, wanting more information than I give on the website, which…

Michael: All right, what’s your website?

Kamron: www.profitwithpizza.com

Michael: Okay. It should tell you something. It tells you that they don’t have enough information.

Kamron: Go look at it, there’s plenty there. They’re just leery of spending that kind of money, even with a one year guarantee. I’m thinking if I actually had a phone number, and these people could just call me and I could talk them, instead of this dance of e-mailing, references that they could talk to.

Michael: How are you getting people to this site?

Kamron: Postcards, for the most part. That’s another thing, too. I don’t think half these people can even get on the internet.

Michael: That’s very true.

Kamron: These people don’t have time to get on the internet.

Michael: Half of the probably aren’t on it, and half of them don’t have time to go on it. They’re too busy working. Think about when you owned your store. Did you have time during the day to sit in front of the computer? With employee’s and running a business?

Kamron: Heck yeah I did, because I wasn’t actually down running the business. I had people doing that.

Michael: All right, so you’re sending out a lead generating a postcard. What does the postcard say?

Kamron: It has a testimonial on one side, and the other side is “How I turned a $3000 a week pizza shop into a $1.6 million a year Godzilla. Can you use an instant cash windfall of 5000, 10000, 15000 or more, every month? Discover how one pizza operator is making $14,259 extra every month.

Michael: Okay, that’s good. How many did you mail out?

Kamron: I’ve been working a list of a thousand. Right now I’m just looking for the hook that works. And then I’ll go out from there.

Michael: You sent out a thousand. What kind of response have you gotten?

Kamron: I’ve mailed 2 ways. I’ve mailed out the first one only to 1600, only to find out that 400 of those guys were already out of business.

Michael: So you got a bad list.

Kamron: It’s from a friend of mine that runs one of the pizza magazines.

Michael: Okay.

Kamron: That’s what I told him too. I said “Man, you’re wasting a lot of postage”.

Michael: Yeah, absolutely. What kind of response mechanism? Just the website?

Kamron: The website and a toll free number they can call to get a recorded message.

Michael: Okay, did they leave their name and address?

Kamron: Some do, yes.

Michael: Do you send out a letter?

Kamron: Yes.

Michael: Okay. So you follow up with a sales letter? And then the letter just directs them to order fulfillment?

Kamron: Yeah, they can either call or go to the website to order.

Michael: Here’s the thing: You know what I think you’re going to have to do? I think before a lot of people want to drop what is it, four hundred bucks?

Kamron: $327.00

Michael: It’s like with me. I get a lot of calls. Sometimes, once in a while, people want to know what they want and they want to order. Because they know with Jay Abraham’s stuff. They know about it, and they just know I have it, and they want to pay for it. But a lot of times, people definitely want to talk to the person who’s selling it. They don’t know who you are. Everyone’s still distrusting. You may want to take the calls from these people, to really learn about what the market’s like. Start recording the calls when you take them. It may be a hassle at first, but get these questions up front. Get them all recorded. Then, you can re-craft your sales letter into a whole question and answer section in there. So you can leverage your time down the road. But you’ve got to understand your customer. What questions they’re asking, what’s making them hesitant. Certainly, you need to have all the information somewhere where they can go to it. So if someone calls you and says “How am I going to use this postcard to promote my business?” You can direct them to a tip sheet on your website, a special link where you can direct them, or you can have a phone line where they can get the information, or you can send them a special little book if they still have more questions. That way you’re not explaining everything over and over and over again to them on the phone. You should take some calls, for sure, before sending them to your fulfillment center, because these fulfillment centers, they’re hiring these kids to take your calls. They’re not going to sell your product like you are. I think that’s a mistake, because you forward a call to a fulfillment center; I mean, come on, do you think these guys have a vested interest in selling your course?

Kamron: One guy e-mailed me for more information. I called him directly, and he was just sitting there trying to milk me for all the techniques and things in the book. I went over a couple of things with him, but I wasn’t going to read the whole book to him.

Michael: There’s always going to be freeloaders who are going to milk you, you’re just going to have to identify those types of people.

Kamron: He never even ordered the book, but I just thought it was funny because he was telling me how much money he was making and everything, and then he was sitting there trying to milk me for some of the up-selling stuff. And I said, “Listen, if you’re making that kind of money, order the book, it’s chump change, and if it makes you and extra $15,000-$20,000 a year…”

Michael: Okay. Listen. T his is what you do. If I was talking to you, and I wasn’t recording it, it’s almost like a waste of my time. It’s like you’re getting everything out of it, do you see what I’m saying? But, because I’m recording it, with your permission, I can take this recording and edit it and I can create a little audio brochure for you. I have this locked down, in a recording, and that’s valuable to me. Because I’m giving you consulting advice, and it allows another person who comes to my website to see what my consulting is like, or for someone to listen to someone who’s trying to develop an information product, and what problems they’re coming up against because you’re coming against the same problems other people with information products are going to come up against. Now, I’ve got it captured on audio, and the next time someone calls, I don’t have to sit there and repeat myself, I can direct them to our interview. Now that’s what you need to be doing. At the same time, when this guys milking you for questions, give it to him. Tell him everything they want to know, and create yourself an audio brochure to promote the business. You can take segments out of it and create and build your audio cassette program to increase the value of your program. That’s really important. That way you’re not wasting your time. You can still give the advice to them; you make it with the stipulation that he doesn’t mind you recording the conversation. You can tell him that it’s for the benefit of him, because you’ll have all the answers to his questions, on a recording, and you’ll be glad to forward that to him in an audio file. But let these people milk you at first, because you can learn what they want, you can learn the questions they have, and you’ll see many questions duplicated over and over again. You can re-vamp your sales letter, and put those questions in the sales letter. I have another website called www.idpen.com . It’s an invisible ink pen manufacturing business where I teach people how to manufacture pens. Every time I get someone who e-mails me questions, or they call and ask me questions and I record it, I go right to my question and answer page up on my website and put the questions and the answers right in there. So I don’t ever have to duplicate it again.

Kamron: I’ve found myself just enjoying traveling around your website because it just never ends.

Michael: Yeah, there’s a lot to it.

Kamron: You get in there and click here a click there, and before I know it, hell, I’m in your living room.

Michael: Yeah, It’s wild. It’s a lot of fun, and I just keep adding to it. If I’ve got the time, I’ll add stuff to it. When I’m dead, imagine if I keep adding to this website, in the next 20 years, it’s going to be a monster. If I get a good recording one day, after a year a may have 200 or 300 hours. And that is there forever. It’s captured, and that’s what you want to do. It’s a lot of work at first. It really is a lot of work in setting it up. But once that work is set up, you can have fun and do nothing but promote and lead people to your website. But you want to make sure all the answers are there for them, to free up your time.

Kamron: Yeah, the pizza book, I don’t want to call it a hobby, because it was a very serious endeavor, but what I do, the companies I’m working with, I’m working with an industrial company right now, they manufacture a product that goes on rooftops. At a certain level, they’re willing to pay you so much a month. And you put these things into play for them, and it’s kind of easy money.

Michael: What do you enjoy doing most? That’s the question.

Kamron: I enjoy sitting in Maui, man.

Michael: Fine. Have you had some returns?

Kamron: I’ve had one.

Michael: All right.

Kamron: It was a deal where, I sent the book out, and it came back like two weeks later. So I figured, hmm.

Michael: I’d shorten your guarantee. I know they say the longer the guarantee, the worse chance they are of returning it, but you don’t need a year guarantee. If someone’s hot on the information and they buy it, they want that information. They really do. And if it’s a good book and there’s value in there, you’re not going to get many returns, because no one wants to return it, and not many people are going to take the time to go photocopy it.

Kamron: Brian Boyle told me that of the thousands and thousands of books he’s sold, he got 6 back.

Michael: Yeah.

Kamron: Not bad.

Michael: That is not bad because I have my own copy of his book, I don’t want to let it go. I want my copy, because if I know what kind of letters are in there, those letters on how to show magic shows are gold. If I ever had a client who was in magic, I’d go right to that. I’ve got the letter on how to clean computers, which is in his book, which was a real successful piece he put in there. I’ve taken that letter and given that to my computer repairman. I access this stuff for my clients, because I never know what kind of client I’m going to get. Now I have to know what’s in there and am able to reference it. So, if your material is that good no one is going to want to let it go. You also may want to make it difficult for them to take the book and go photocopy it; maybe you want to consider a comb binder, rather than a three-ring binder.

Alright, I’m looking forward to looking at your website and checking that out. I think you’ve got a great product and you’ve got a great market. I think you need to learn a little bit more about your customer and then get that stuff on recording. Build up some audio tapes and have every answer anyone’s going to ask you available on a little site or in a little booklet for them, to free up your time, go to Maui, and just run your business.

Kamron: I’ve worked this list of 1,000, I’ve sold 17 books.

Michael: That’s great!

Kamron: I need to…

Michael: Absolutely, you need to get testimonials. What you do, you just bribe them. You tell them, that you’re coming out with an audio tape series, and you’ll give them a set of the audio tapes for their best glowing testimonial, and specific examples of how they’ve used any of the techniques.

Kamron: Good idea.

Michael: And you need to start collecting them. Every time I collect a testimonial, I’ve got over 225 testimonials up on my site. When you go to the testimonial page, it’s page after page after page. Every one I’ve put up there.

Kamron: They’re very seductive.

Michael: Well they are... they’re powerful.

Kamron: Tell you what, I appreciate it, Michael, I’m going to get back with you and talk more about this

Michael: Thank you again for listening; this is Michael Senoff with www.hardtofindseminars.com . If you want to get in touch with any of the people in the interviews, please email me .